“Although there is widespread agreement that discussion is
vital to comprehension and critical thinking, the implementation is less than
robust.”How do you make it more robust?
Some of the ways that I incorporate this is through music. I know it sounds weird, but since I have a music background- I use music a lot. I believe it is a vital component of helping the brain "wake up". We use a "drum circle" to expand upon teaching moments, such as character skits, social skills, and then story retelling. I use this to expand on concepts that have just been taught. I think that anyway we can make a game out of learning helps our students understand the concepts better than just a plain old worksheet.
Drum circles are a fun name - I've also heard them called "round tables" - and make for a less intimidating atmosphere. I would also have to agree that making a game out of learning definitely helps as it's more interactive and more social.
I am a huge fan of visual imagery in making comprehension (and critical thinking) more robust. While it is nice to have a visual in general, visuals have shown to create a greater impact and aid understanding for ELLs and SpEd students. It also aligns with Common Core standards by applying to a variety of mediums: pictures, art, videos, etc. It makes things more entertaining and breaks things up nicely. You can do a variety of activities stemming from the visuals and leading to discussion, but there is so much learning that can happen in-between that is missed if you jump straight to a discussion.
I bet half of my sped students are also ELL so visuals are important all around! I also use a lot of pictures and videos to help enrich the content. I feel if my students can tie a concept to a visual then the learning becomes more permanent, they have a visual to draw from in the future.
I use a lot of graphic organizers and refer back to them often during the reading, I find that often helps in keeping discussions on track. The main way I make my discussions more robust is in choosing the books we read. Since I have my students for 3 years I can build a reading curriculum that progresses through those years. I can also align my books with content the core teachers are teaching. With that I can have more in depth discussions. For example my 8th graders just finished reading "Number the Stars". We read that because they are beginning "Diary of Anne Frank" in English. Since both in my class and English are studying the WWII time era I can expand on the content and get them thinking at the deeper thinking levels. In "Number the Stars" we read about the Johanssen's lying about Ellen being their daughter to protect her from the German soldiers. So had a discussion about lying and if it's ever acceptable. That was an interesting discussion!!! When I can tie my books to what they are studying in their core subjects, in some way, I usually get better discussions.
I bet that your students had some interesting things to say about lying! It is good that you can align your books with the general education class, I think that your students are getting the most that way and they feel more like their peers when they can understand the main points in things that are being read.
Controversial topics like lying would be interesting with students, especially bringing into the discussion about whether or not there was ever an appropriate time to not tell the complete truth. I bet it was interesting.
Graphic organizers are a great way to get the students to visualize what is going on in the story. I use graphic organizers myself when putting down the pros and cons of things. I think these are things that students can use in life as they get older as well.
I do a lot of discussions with my students. I ask for their opinion and then have them substantiate the ‘why’ of it. They have to dig deep to verbally support their opinion, I don’t let a ‘because’ be enough of an answer. Sometimes, my students are too timid to speak up in a general education setting; they fear they will be wrong and therefore, don’t volunteer during classroom discussions. In my room, where there are fewer classmates present allows them to be accepted for who they are and what they know. I think it’s refreshing to listen to their reasons as to ‘why’ they believe something to be.
I love using why and how questions! It is so funny to me because I don't really remember my teacher ever asking me "why" or "how" but always telling or showing me. The other day I asked a kindergarten student how he knew that a pencil was shorter than a ruler. He just stared at me for a bit then he said, "I know it's shorter because it isn't as long as the ruler!" He got it but he really had to think to answer the question. Not only did he answer the question correctly but he now had an understanding of how.
I like the new focus of the common core that students be able to tell why they answer the way they do. We are studying TIS math to build our interventions for math, and one of the focuses in the importance of "number talks", or, in this district, the "Solve and Share" components that are a part of an Envision math lesson.
It's really handy that we use SFA here in Lakin because it incorporates a lot of graphic organizers in reading. The kids are able to discuss the book but also go deeper by filling out the graphic organizer as they work. I've seen some of my SpEd students who really struggle with comprehension be way more successful due to the use of the graphic organizers.
Graphic organizers are a great way to help students make connections with information. I don't tend to use them as much, but they would be a great resource!
I agree, graphic organizers are a great way to improve student comprehension. I think that once we teach students how to use them, they can be a great resource.
I think that so many of our students are visual learners that I tend to tie it to something they can visualize or show some pictures. I also like to tie the story to something in their life so that they can better understand what is going on with literature. This can also tie back to the last post in that this is a way we can get them into higher level thinking. Asking the students questions to get them to understand may also lead them into thinking in a higher way.
Dustin- I think your idea of tying the story to aspects of the students’ lives is a really great way to improve their understanding. I was recently in a classroom where the teacher was reading a story, and she asked her students a question relating to one of character’s feelings. Everyone looked confused, didn’t say anything, didn’t make eye contact with the teacher, etc. (You know the type of situation I’m talking about, haha!). So then she reframes the question as, “Ok, do you remember a few weeks ago when this happened, and this person was involved, and…” In the end, the question she wanted answered was still the same, but as you can imagine, making the concepts more relatable and meaningful to her students worked out much better for her.
That is a good point. Our students are incredibly visual, not so much auditory. One of my constant critiques is that I teach like my students are auditory learners, even though they are really anything but auditory learners. I have to work hard to come up with visual, real-world, and more appropriate examples.
When I work with my students we have lots of discussions. Some have proven very interesting over the years. My students tend to be quiet and not very quick to contribute in their classes, but in my class that looks very different. Teachers have been surprised to learn how “good” my students answers can be. During our discussions I try to make as many comparisons to them and their lives as I can. This way when I put some meaning behind what we are focusing in on, it sticks with them better. Students have even said that they have remembered our discussions a year or so afterward.
I use visuals and pictures. I use this when listening and reading a story for example. When reading red riding hood I use pictures in order to see the sequence of the story, I use puppets to possibly act out the story and then dig deeper to ask them "wh" questions through verbal or through pictures to test for comprehension of the story. There are many ways even young learners can start building higher level thinking skills.
If the discussion questions are right/wrong questions with one correct answer, the teacher won’t get a rich discussion. Some students don’t know how to handle questions that don’t have one right answer. It takes modeling, practice, and patience. Students need time to think and process through the critical thinking questions before having a ready answer. I think about the higher level areas of Bloom’s Taxonomy to write questions to make students process, analyze, and evaluate in discussions.
I agree if the questions are right/wrong answers then this does not leave much to discuss and provide rich discussions. I have always hated true/false quizzes as it is 50/50 chance but it doesn't show you know the answer or can elaborate on it. I like to write because you are able to back up your answers with your thoughts.
I think to make critical thinking and conversations more robust you need to help the students learn student learning conversations. The students need to have guided conversations among one another. As they are doing this it is important to discuss mis-conceptions. Also to deepen critical thinking it is important to use graphic organizers to help organize thoughts and thinking that is happening.
Regarding a more robust implementation for classroom discussion, I agree with several strategies the book mentioned. I think providing students with your expectations up front about what a whole class discussion should look like is important, as they likely won’t be accustomed to the format at first and may view it as more of a free pass just to talk. Additionally, I feel like giving the conversation time to develop is huge, too (I was shocked by the study results about the average length of classroom discussions in English classes.). I imagine this could probably be difficult in the beginning, because I know silence can be awkward sometimes (At least for me it is!), but I also think it’s a small thing to put up with in comparison to the benefits that could be experienced from a really worthwhile discussion in the long run. Another strategy that could be implemented to assist with the ‘silence’ portion would be to ask more open-ended, focus type questions that require more than a Yes/No or shorter response that you may get instead from asking funneling questions.
I was also shocked by the average length of classroom discussions, but I guess I shouldn't have been based on most of the classroom observations I conduct. Most of the time when I observed it's the teacher feeding information to the students with periodic pauses for one or two students to respond with surface level knowledge.
Discussion time of 14 to 52 seconds as average discussion length in English classes isn't very long. We are uncomfortable with awkward pauses. Listen to our televisions and video games; if it goes silent, we are checking to see if something is wrong. I think breaking into smaller groups before the large group discusses might be a strategy to help students marshall their thoughts. Some may need more time to think about how what they are learning is connected to what they know.
One of the strategies in the book that resonated with me was the conversation markers. As I've added cooperative learning components to the questions I ask teachers this year, I've seen the pattern that many of the students we serve through special education, not just those that are on the spectrum, but those with learning disabilities or attention concerns, haven't yet mastered the social skills to work well in a group. I wonder if a set of these scripted questions to practice as they worked might be effective. I'd agree with what Brittany said earlier too, I think one of the reasons teachers don't use discussion as much is the "blank stares" they can get when they invite discussion. Like anything in the classroom, it needs instruction, and to become the expectation and the norm.
As my fellow psychs have stated, I think students need to be instructed how to engage in meaningful discussions. Since this is a practice not frequently used by teachers, most students are unsure what to do when asked to discuss a text. Another thing that I believe limits discussions in today's classroom, is society's reliance on technology. Students are not even engaging in social conversations as much as they did in the past, making educational discussions even tougher.
I think the resource room has some advantages when in comes to discussion. In the typically small groups that are in resource rooms I have found that students are much more willing to participate and contribute their two cents. It is very difficult to hind in class if there are only three students. I use a quite a but of discussion in my ELA class. I try to develop good why questions that lead to further conversation.
In the beginning, we talked about the teacher's building relationships with students. Building trust while building the relationship is equally important. Before students will share, they have to trust that their classroom environment is a safe place to share their thoughts in discussion. Making the concepts relatable, understandable, and memorable by tying them to the students' lives will aid student understanding and increase their participation. Perhaps breakout into smaller groups for a small group discussion might allow for greater participation and greater student involvement. If large group discussion is relied on solely, only a few may voice their opinions. I agree with many who have said that explicit instruction in how to participate in effective discussion might be time well-spent.
Discussion is definitely a key component to comprehension. When reading, I tend to ask questions in a discussion format periodically throughout our reading. I also tend to take the "teachable" moments and run with them. In my room, my groups are all small. We have developed relationships and the kids all feel comfortable sharing...even when they are wrong. We use a lot visuals, and if we don't have one, we look them up on google. I want kids to understand what they are reading and will do whatever necessary to help them make connections. Discussion is definitely one way that I do that.
It seems like there is a great discrepancy between what we as teachers think our discussions are like and how they actually go. The text made the comment that the average length of whole class discussions vary from 14 to 52 seconds! That's not a class discussion, but sadly, I can relate. Whether it is teaching a class or teaching Sunday school, I find that a discussion can often become me asking a question and two or three people weighing in. While it is easy to imagine my "discussions" go well, I have to remember what the text stated, "Just because students are talking more doesn't mean that it automatically results in deeper learning." Much of our discussions becomes a straight question and answer session. This is regurgitation, not true discussion. Therefore it never progresses to deeper learning. As with everything else, the first way to fix a problem is to recognize it. Knowing our faults and tendencies help teachers diagnose our problems and come up with solutions. It is also important to begin with the end in mind. If the goal of discussions are to get students discussing content without having the teacher involved, we must plan our discussions to give students more buy-in and freedom. It must be student-led, and student-driven.
Some of the ways that I incorporate this is through music. I know it sounds weird, but since I have a music background- I use music a lot. I believe it is a vital component of helping the brain "wake up". We use a "drum circle" to expand upon teaching moments, such as character skits, social skills, and then story retelling. I use this to expand on concepts that have just been taught. I think that anyway we can make a game out of learning helps our students understand the concepts better than just a plain old worksheet.
ReplyDeleteDrum circles are a fun name - I've also heard them called "round tables" - and make for a less intimidating atmosphere. I would also have to agree that making a game out of learning definitely helps as it's more interactive and more social.
DeleteI am a huge fan of visual imagery in making comprehension (and critical thinking) more robust. While it is nice to have a visual in general, visuals have shown to create a greater impact and aid understanding for ELLs and SpEd students. It also aligns with Common Core standards by applying to a variety of mediums: pictures, art, videos, etc. It makes things more entertaining and breaks things up nicely. You can do a variety of activities stemming from the visuals and leading to discussion, but there is so much learning that can happen in-between that is missed if you jump straight to a discussion.
ReplyDeleteI bet half of my sped students are also ELL so visuals are important all around! I also use a lot of pictures and videos to help enrich the content. I feel if my students can tie a concept to a visual then the learning becomes more permanent, they have a visual to draw from in the future.
DeleteI use a lot of graphic organizers and refer back to them often during the reading, I find that often helps in keeping discussions on track.
ReplyDeleteThe main way I make my discussions more robust is in choosing the books we read. Since I have my students for 3 years I can build a reading curriculum that progresses through those years. I can also align my books with content the core teachers are teaching. With that I can have more in depth discussions. For example my 8th graders just finished reading "Number the Stars". We read that because they are beginning "Diary of Anne Frank" in English. Since both in my class and English are studying the WWII time era I can expand on the content and get them thinking at the deeper thinking levels.
In "Number the Stars" we read about the Johanssen's lying about Ellen being their daughter to protect her from the German soldiers. So had a discussion about lying and if it's ever acceptable. That was an interesting discussion!!! When I can tie my books to what they are studying in their core subjects, in some way, I usually get better discussions.
I bet that your students had some interesting things to say about lying! It is good that you can align your books with the general education class, I think that your students are getting the most that way and they feel more like their peers when they can understand the main points in things that are being read.
DeleteControversial topics like lying would be interesting with students, especially bringing into the discussion about whether or not there was ever an appropriate time to not tell the complete truth. I bet it was interesting.
DeleteGraphic organizers are a great way to get the students to visualize what is going on in the story. I use graphic organizers myself when putting down the pros and cons of things. I think these are things that students can use in life as they get older as well.
DeleteI think graphic organizers are a great way to aide in comprehension and to help organize our thoughts.
DeleteI do a lot of discussions with my students. I ask for their opinion and then have them substantiate the ‘why’ of it. They have to dig deep to verbally support their opinion, I don’t let a ‘because’ be enough of an answer. Sometimes, my students are too timid to speak up in a general education setting; they fear they will be wrong and therefore, don’t volunteer during classroom discussions. In my room, where there are fewer classmates present allows them to be accepted for who they are and what they know. I think it’s refreshing to listen to their reasons as to ‘why’ they believe something to be.
ReplyDeleteI love using why and how questions! It is so funny to me because I don't really remember my teacher ever asking me "why" or "how" but always telling or showing me. The other day I asked a kindergarten student how he knew that a pencil was shorter than a ruler. He just stared at me for a bit then he said, "I know it's shorter because it isn't as long as the ruler!" He got it but he really had to think to answer the question. Not only did he answer the question correctly but he now had an understanding of how.
DeleteI like the new focus of the common core that students be able to tell why they answer the way they do. We are studying TIS math to build our interventions for math, and one of the focuses in the importance of "number talks", or, in this district, the "Solve and Share" components that are a part of an Envision math lesson.
DeleteI like your point on why and how questions. These are essential to have further conversation.
DeleteIt's really handy that we use SFA here in Lakin because it incorporates a lot of graphic organizers in reading. The kids are able to discuss the book but also go deeper by filling out the graphic organizer as they work. I've seen some of my SpEd students who really struggle with comprehension be way more successful due to the use of the graphic organizers.
ReplyDeleteGraphic organizers are a great way to help students make connections with information. I don't tend to use them as much, but they would be a great resource!
DeleteI agree, graphic organizers are a great way to improve student comprehension. I think that once we teach students how to use them, they can be a great resource.
DeleteI think that so many of our students are visual learners that I tend to tie it to something they can visualize or show some pictures. I also like to tie the story to something in their life so that they can better understand what is going on with literature. This can also tie back to the last post in that this is a way we can get them into higher level thinking. Asking the students questions to get them to understand may also lead them into thinking in a higher way.
ReplyDeleteDustin-
DeleteI think your idea of tying the story to aspects of the students’ lives is a really great way to improve their understanding. I was recently in a classroom where the teacher was reading a story, and she asked her students a question relating to one of character’s feelings. Everyone looked confused, didn’t say anything, didn’t make eye contact with the teacher, etc. (You know the type of situation I’m talking about, haha!). So then she reframes the question as, “Ok, do you remember a few weeks ago when this happened, and this person was involved, and…” In the end, the question she wanted answered was still the same, but as you can imagine, making the concepts more relatable and meaningful to her students worked out much better for her.
That is a good point. Our students are incredibly visual, not so much auditory. One of my constant critiques is that I teach like my students are auditory learners, even though they are really anything but auditory learners. I have to work hard to come up with visual, real-world, and more appropriate examples.
DeleteWhen I work with my students we have lots of discussions. Some have proven very interesting over the years. My students tend to be quiet and not very quick to contribute in their classes, but in my class that looks very different. Teachers have been surprised to learn how “good” my students answers can be. During our discussions I try to make as many comparisons to them and their lives as I can. This way when I put some meaning behind what we are focusing in on, it sticks with them better. Students have even said that they have remembered our discussions a year or so afterward.
ReplyDeleteI use visuals and pictures. I use this when listening and reading a story for example. When reading red riding hood I use pictures in order to see the sequence of the story, I use puppets to possibly act out the story and then dig deeper to ask them "wh" questions through verbal or through pictures to test for comprehension of the story.
ReplyDeleteThere are many ways even young learners can start building higher level thinking skills.
If the discussion questions are right/wrong questions with one correct answer, the teacher won’t get a rich discussion. Some students don’t know how to handle questions that don’t have one right answer. It takes modeling, practice, and patience. Students need time to think and process through the critical thinking questions before having a ready answer. I think about the higher level areas of Bloom’s Taxonomy to write questions to make students process, analyze, and evaluate in discussions.
ReplyDeleteI agree if the questions are right/wrong answers then this does not leave much to discuss and provide rich discussions. I have always hated true/false quizzes as it is 50/50 chance but it doesn't show you know the answer or can elaborate on it. I like to write because you are able to back up your answers with your thoughts.
DeleteI think to make critical thinking and conversations more robust you need to help the students learn student learning conversations. The students need to have guided conversations among one another. As they are doing this it is important to discuss mis-conceptions. Also to deepen critical thinking it is important to use graphic organizers to help organize thoughts and thinking that is happening.
ReplyDeleteRegarding a more robust implementation for classroom discussion, I agree with several strategies the book mentioned. I think providing students with your expectations up front about what a whole class discussion should look like is important, as they likely won’t be accustomed to the format at first and may view it as more of a free pass just to talk. Additionally, I feel like giving the conversation time to develop is huge, too (I was shocked by the study results about the average length of classroom discussions in English classes.). I imagine this could probably be difficult in the beginning, because I know silence can be awkward sometimes (At least for me it is!), but I also think it’s a small thing to put up with in comparison to the benefits that could be experienced from a really worthwhile discussion in the long run. Another strategy that could be implemented to assist with the ‘silence’ portion would be to ask more open-ended, focus type questions that require more than a Yes/No or shorter response that you may get instead from asking funneling questions.
ReplyDeleteI was also shocked by the average length of classroom discussions, but I guess I shouldn't have been based on most of the classroom observations I conduct. Most of the time when I observed it's the teacher feeding information to the students with periodic pauses for one or two students to respond with surface level knowledge.
DeleteDiscussion time of 14 to 52 seconds as average discussion length in English classes isn't very long. We are uncomfortable with awkward pauses. Listen to our televisions and video games; if it goes silent, we are checking to see if something is wrong. I think breaking into smaller groups before the large group discusses might be a strategy to help students marshall their thoughts. Some may need more time to think about how what they are learning is connected to what they know.
DeleteOne of the strategies in the book that resonated with me was the conversation markers. As I've added cooperative learning components to the questions I ask teachers this year, I've seen the pattern that many of the students we serve through special education, not just those that are on the spectrum, but those with learning disabilities or attention concerns, haven't yet mastered the social skills to work well in a group. I wonder if a set of these scripted questions to practice as they worked might be effective. I'd agree with what Brittany said earlier too, I think one of the reasons teachers don't use discussion as much is the "blank stares" they can get when they invite discussion. Like anything in the classroom, it needs instruction, and to become the expectation and the norm.
ReplyDeleteAs my fellow psychs have stated, I think students need to be instructed how to engage in meaningful discussions. Since this is a practice not frequently used by teachers, most students are unsure what to do when asked to discuss a text. Another thing that I believe limits discussions in today's classroom, is society's reliance on technology. Students are not even engaging in social conversations as much as they did in the past, making educational discussions even tougher.
ReplyDeleteI think the resource room has some advantages when in comes to discussion. In the typically small groups that are in resource rooms I have found that students are much more willing to participate and contribute their two cents. It is very difficult to hind in class if there are only three students. I use a quite a but of discussion in my ELA class. I try to develop good why questions that lead to further conversation.
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning, we talked about the teacher's building relationships with students. Building trust while building the relationship is equally important. Before students will share, they have to trust that their classroom environment is a safe place to share their thoughts in discussion. Making the concepts relatable, understandable, and memorable by tying them to the students' lives will aid student understanding and increase their participation. Perhaps breakout into smaller groups for a small group discussion might allow for greater participation and greater student involvement. If large group discussion is relied on solely, only a few may voice their opinions. I agree with many who have said that explicit instruction in how to participate in effective discussion might be time well-spent.
ReplyDeleteDiscussion is definitely a key component to comprehension. When reading, I tend to ask questions in a discussion format periodically throughout our reading. I also tend to take the "teachable" moments and run with them. In my room, my groups are all small. We have developed relationships and the kids all feel comfortable sharing...even when they are wrong. We use a lot visuals, and if we don't have one, we look them up on google. I want kids to understand what they are reading and will do whatever necessary to help them make connections. Discussion is definitely one way that I do that.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like there is a great discrepancy between what we as teachers think our discussions are like and how they actually go. The text made the comment that the average length of whole class discussions vary from 14 to 52 seconds! That's not a class discussion, but sadly, I can relate. Whether it is teaching a class or teaching Sunday school, I find that a discussion can often become me asking a question and two or three people weighing in. While it is easy to imagine my "discussions" go well, I have to remember what the text stated, "Just because students are talking more doesn't mean that it automatically results in deeper learning." Much of our discussions becomes a straight question and answer session. This is regurgitation, not true discussion. Therefore it never progresses to deeper learning. As with everything else, the first way to fix a problem is to recognize it. Knowing our faults and tendencies help teachers diagnose our problems and come up with solutions. It is also important to begin with the end in mind. If the goal of discussions are to get students discussing content without having the teacher involved, we must plan our discussions to give students more buy-in and freedom. It must be student-led, and student-driven.
ReplyDelete